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So… Let’s say you’re driving down the street and you see a hulking hunk of iron machinery sitting on the curb with a cardboard sign with the word “free” scrawled on it with a broad tip marker; Or, maybe an elderly relative passes away and you’re the person responsible for cleaning up the mess they made after 50 years of hoarding junk (I pity the poor soul that get’s that job on my rat hole); Or maybe you are going to an auction and are interested in bidding on a piece of old machinery and just don’t know how high you should go; Maybe you see a piece on e-bay or craigslist or kijiji or some other site and you just don’t know if it’s a deal or if it’s fool’s gold…  How do you find out what the real value of this junk?  You could go to a whole bunch of auctions and build your own index of prices, but that would take years… You could check prices on e-bay, but it’s gotten to be very difficult to tell what something actually sold for versus the typically unrealistic asking prices. You could ask a machinery dealer to help you value the piece, but they have an interest in preserving their business model (buy as low as possible and sell as high as possible), so any opinion there will likely be colored by their goal of making money.

What other choices do you have? You could go to an on-line community of collectors and restorers and ask them to collectively help you with valuation. Unfortunately, they’d be unwilling to offer you any help at all. And any do-gooders, helpful sorts, etc that you might find there are prevented from helping you by the rules:

Appraisals: Do not ask for or give appraisals.  Without seeing a machine in person, there are too many unknowns. In addition, prices vary considerably by location, condition, age, ease of pick up or delivery, and so on.  Your best option is to search for available sale prices, such as completed sales on eBay (as opposed to listing prices with no bids), listings on our own “Bring Out Your Dead” forum, and other sale sites.

I’m not sure why this rule exists. They give a bunch of reasons that don’t make any sense to the newcomer or casual visitor. More of a RTFM response than anything else. They also have a real aversion to any sort of controversy. If there was a difference of opinion it might result in a healthy argument which is definitely discouraged. Anyway, you won’t get any help from this group either.

I field a handful of requests for appraisal on value and fitness of purpose on a weekly basis. This week the number of requests finally hit the tipping point and I started thinking about what I could do to streamline the process. This page is my first attempt at the improved process. First I need a few lay out the terms of service, disclaimers, etc:

  • I’m not an expert. I see a lot of machines. I go to more auctions than anyone I know. My guess at what something will sell for is usually pretty close.
  • I make mistakes. It has cost me money. If you listen to me, it could cost you money.
  • I’m not a machinery dealer. I’m an IT guy and a machinery opportunist.
  • Valuations are tough to do from pictures and written descriptions. Factors that affect value are often missed in pictures. Old repairs, wear and other factors are difficult for the uninitiated to spot/gauge.
  • Prices do vary widely by region. I’ll try to factor this in. Just remember that if you’re in Seattle and you see a much different price in New Jersey.

I’m going to do this with the comments section of this page. Just post your request in the “Leave a Reply” section at the bottom of the page. I’ll review the request and post my answer in a reply to the comment. I’ve also enabled the ability to upload pictures with your comments. I strongly recommend that you use this feature as it will vastly improve accuracy. At least you’ll be able to scroll through the requests and see if something similar was already submitted.

Eventually, I’ll try to install a discussion plugin which will allow a little more flexibility in the request and response. I may even ask some other folks to act as experts in certain areas. We’ll se how this goes first. If there’s a big enough demand, I’ll work on improvements and expansion.

-the owwm

37 Responses to “For what it's worth or… What's it worth?”

  1. Evan Howell says:

    Dear The OWWN: What is the name of the music you used for the “Milling a rough casting on a Cincinnati Tool” video? Thanks, EPH

  2. Joe says:

    Maybe you have seen this on the other site. Bought some property and these machines were left on it. Yates American Bandsaw (someone stated around the 1920’s) and a Crescent #3 Tablesaw. These are bonus items on the ground – I have no desire to restore them but feel that someone could, stopped the previous owners from scrapping them. Any information would be helpful.
    Thank you – Joe
    Can only get one picture to upload at a time will send another with the tablesaw.

    • The owwm says:

      Joe,
      Thanks for your message. This saw is likely from the late teens or early 1920’s. The wooden wheel is throwing me a bit. These were typically found on earlier machines. The 42″ bandsaw required a hole or pit in the floor to accommodate the large wheel below the table. I’ve also seen these run on riser blocks. It is a bit difficult to do fine scroll work with the saw raised off the floor (you’re working at chest height). Ball bearings were optional on this saw. The upper housing looks like it might be ball bearing, but I can’t tell for sure without close-up pictures of the upper and lower shafts. The saw probably weighs around 2500 LBS. It looks like most of the saw is there, so it could be restored. The real difficulty will be in repairing the upper wheel as it has a wood rim. This is entirely possible, it just requires a lot of work, fine-tuning and patience. The 42″ saw is less desirable than a 36″, mainly due to the pit requirement and the increased ceiling height required. In it’s current condition, I would give the saw a value of between $200 and $400. Given the weight, the saw is worth about $200 in scrap. I would advocate restoring it or at least selling the parts to someone that could use them to restore one or more machines. A single part could have more value than the entire machine to someone that is stuck on a restoration. Let me know where you’re located. Also look forward to seeing pictures of the Table Saw.

      Thanks,

      -Arthur

  3. Joe says:

    This is the table saw.
    Thank you for the information on the Bandsaw.

    • The owwm says:

      Joe,
      That looks like a Crescent No. 3 Universal Saw Table. This is a tilt top table saw, meaning that the table rather than the arbor tilts. It is a dual arbor machine that would have had two saw mandrels mounted on a rotating drum. This saw has a large split cast iron frame with a countershaft mounted at the back to accommodate power from a line shaft. The saw was originally furnished with two miter cut-off gauges and a fence that travelled on a cast iron rail at the front of the table. I would place the saw as being made from 1900-1910. Tilt top table saws are somewhat less desirable than tilting arbor saws. They do pose some safety concerns, in that the fall-off from the workpiece tends to drop on the blade and can easily be launched back at the operator. That said, there are a lot of these saws in use today and Crescent is a manufacturer that is well known and sought after by collectors and restorers. The presence of the fence and miter gauges will be a major factor in setting the value of the saw. With both of those parts present, I would estimate the value at $400-500. Absent those parts, I would place the value at $150 to $200. At that price it’s still double what the saw would bring in scrap value. I hope this helps. Are you located in the Northeast? If so, I’d enjoy the opportunity to see these pieces.

      Thanks,

      -Arthur

  4. Joe says:

    Northeast Kansas (Leavenworth). If you have contact with anyone in this area that would be helpful. Thanks again for all the information!
    Joe

  5. Beatrix McGee says:

    We have a cast iron table saw all it says H.B.Smith, Smithville, patented May 3 1870. Both bottom and top are cast iron and a real bugger to move…..have no need but do need income…..was wondering if it has more value as table saw or scrap cast iron not sure if the motor is seized up or not because we have not use it in years (about 20) any information on this piece would be appreciated because we have no clue can’t get pictures today but can later in the week. Thank you

    • The owwm says:

      I did a quick search for patents on that date. I couldn’t come up with anything specifically for HB Smith. The saw will typically have a model number cast into the frame or painted on it. That would help me find it in the catalog. Of course a picture would definitely help. Smith had a very wide variety of saws (and woodworking machinery). It would be difficult for me to say much more before getting a model number or a photo. That said, it definitely could have more value as a saw than it would bring in scrap. Please send me a picture or the model number and give me an idea of the region you’re located in and I’ll take a crack at giving you a value on the saw.

      Thanks,

      -Arthur

  6. Gilles Bujold says:

    Hi i restored this Porter-Cable D1 15” disc sander, just wondering how much could this sander be Worth, the serial number is 1764, fully operational, new bearing on motor. thank you.

    • The owwm says:

      The porter cable is a nice sander. This is at the top of the spectrum for quality and at the middle for price. There is not a lot of history on sales for this sander, but this sander is on par with industrial brands like Apex, State or Max. There is ample historical sales information out there on these brands. I would put the low end (unrestored) at $600 and the high end at $1750. I home this helps.

      -Arthur

  7. Henry Black says:

    Hi,
    Just found your site and noted your interest in Wadkin pattern mills.
    I am from Sydney Australia.
    I am currently chasing up a few examples of the Wadkin Mechanical Woodworker.
    I was wondering if you had ever heard of one of these 1897/1909 machines in existence anywhere else in the world?
    This was Wadkin’s original machine that launched them into the manufacture of the whole range of woodworking machinery especially for pattern shops.
    Please get back to me if you are interested or know anyone who may be.
    If these are the only survivors it would be sad to lose them now.
    One was on the Titanic apparently but that is probably just an urban myth.
    Jarvis ? was and the story about him and Oliver and the patent suite and then the exclusive agency for Wadkin in the US until the 1950s is another story worth investigating.
    Yours from Oz
    Henry.

    • The owwm says:

      Henry,
      Thanks for your comments. I’ve only seen old catalogue illustrations for the early mills. None of those were of the quality to give any reasonable amount of detail. I believe there are some patent drawings available through search. I am definitely interested in knowing more about the machines you describe. The Titanic story is based at least in part on fact. Jarvis was in fact on the Titanic when it sank. He was also coming to North America to sell pattern making equipment. It’s just not clear what that was. There is a memorial at St. Mary Magdalene cemetery in Knighton, Leicester, England that was erected by his wife. There was in fact a patent dispute with Oliver over the pattern mill. It is well known that Oliver had a propensity toward design infringement. Any connection of this dispute and it’s disposition to Jarvis and the sinking of the Titanic are conjecture and urban legend.

      -Arthur

      Jarvis Memorial

  8. Clyde Leitold says:

    Good Morning Arthur, Clyde on this end. The appreciation and devotion of countless numbers of people dedicated to the designers, (engineers), foundry workers, machinists, factory workers, and assembly men and woman speaks volumes to a legacy that will never be duplicated. A rock solid foundation that helped to build countless countrys around the world. I own a Baxter D Whitney #177, well above average condition, simply need the cast iron fence that mounts to the rack and pinion. My pride and joy. A Yates-American # 1 3 toed Hand Jointer 12″, Another bute. About to pick up a 30″ Yates -American Band Saw, another sweetheart. An Ekstrom Carlson 11/4 ” spindle shaper, looking for a nice fence for this shaper. I also have a Northfield #4 16″ table saw that will get some TLC as time goes on. And a sweet little Red Fox planer, 12″ totally complete and beautiful. Industrial sculptur if I may. Enough for now, gotta run. Any thoughts or help is greatly appreciated. I live in North Central Mn. Aitkin, Mn. to be exact 56431. Hope this finds you well.

    • the owwm says:

      Clyde,
      Thanks for the comments. If you send me a picture of your Whitney fence, I may have the face here. At the very least, I could have one cast from one of my fences. This would be a pretty straightforward job as it’s a simple two sided machining job. Sounds like you have a nice collection of machines there. I’d be interested in knowing more about them.

      Stay Well,

      -Arthur

      • Clyde Leitold says:

        Arthur, Clyde on this end. getting ready to put the top on my Whitney 177. B-4 I do What are your thoughts from the experience you have on gib adjustment and lubrication as well as the trunion lubrication. what would you recommend for the grease that has worked the best on these beautiful old machines. Do you use anything on the acme threads for your angle and up and down adjustment. Any and all help and suggestions is appreciated. I would love to send you some pictures. could you briefly explain how to do that as i am not very computer savy at this point. An old iron greeting Clyde.

        • the owwm says:

          Clyde,
          I would use very light grease on the trunion and gibs. U typically use dry silicone or grahite on the screws. You can use oil, but you’ll need to clean frequently.

          -Arthur

  9. Brandy Wright says:

    We have come across a fully functional accurate “The Porter” 6″ Jointer in original condition, never been restored. Appears to have all parts however does not have a base which I believe was optional but could be wrong. Can you please give me a rough guess on what it is worth. Not sure if I should sell it or just keep it. I am not sure how to upload photos here but I will try to figure it out.

    Thanks,
    Brandy

    • the owwm says:

      Brandy,
      This is one of the nicest little wedge bed jointers I have seen. Porter jointers are very much desired by woodworkers and collectors. It appears to be direct drive which makes it more desirable. The original “pork chop” guard is also a great feature and somewhat difficult to find intact. I noticed that the fence is unattached. I don’t see the bracket that attaches it to the table in the picture. If the bracket is there and the machine is complete, I would place the value at $750. If the fence parts are missing, I would estimate it at $350-$450. I hope this helps. This really is a very nice machine. Let me know if I can be of further assistance.

      -Arthur


      • Brandy Wright says:

        It does help. Thank you so much. I am new to this so please excuse if it is a silly question… Is it beneficial to restore it like clean it up and paint it or is it better to leave as original?

        Thanks
        Brandy

        • the owwm says:

          Brandy,
          A good cleaning is always a good first step. If it is in it’s original paint, then I would do nothing to it. If it’s been repainted already, and you’re comfortable masking and painting, then go ahead. As far as mechanical service goes, I would clean oil and grease as appropriate to make sure everything works well. As far as a complete tear-down, repaint and reassemble goes, It would take one or two days for a small jointer like this. That said, it would be pretty easy since the parts are relatively small and can be handled by one person. I’ve completely rebuilt several big porter jointers. They are really quite beautiful when done:
          Porter C 20

  10. Clyde Leitold says:

    Arthur, Thanks for your reply. The silicone sounds much better because it is so much dryer. Any tricks on fine tuning the gibs? And if you remember I told you i needed a face for my ripfence and you asked me to send you some pictures. Could you please go over the steps on how to post pictures on your site. Thank-you Clyde

    • the owwm says:

      Clyde,
      Like any other machine tool that uses dovetailed ways, it’s important to get them tight enough to prevent play, but still leave enough clearance to get smooth, easy movement. I start by snugging the set screws up (tighten by hand and then give a quarter turn with a wrench). Go through the full travel a few times and then check again. I’ve done this so many times that I can tell when it’s right just by how freely the handwheel moves. There’s no harm using the saw for a while and coming back to adjust it again after everything has been worked in. I’m going to work on the picture upload functionality. For now, just e-mail any pictures you have to me at afuege@yahoo.com and I’ll add them to the thread. BTW; a good lightweight grease is the Mobilith SHC PM 460 Synthetic. I’d put a light coating of this on the mating surfaces of the dovetailed ways and gib.

      Thanks,

      -Arthur

  11. Billy says:

    Hello Arthur-
    I see that you have a great deal of experience with the Whitney 77 and 177. I am expecting delivery of a 177 in the next 2 weeks, as a trade for a large AWWM 12 speed lathe(10′), and while I am unsure if the vintage, I do know of some things wrong right off. The fence mech has a broken gear tooth, and while it does still work, it is stiff(so I’ve been told). Since I cannot tell you exactly what gear, I’ll just ask in a vague sort of way, what would be a good route to fix? I am not up to cutting a new one myself, but I do have a machine shop close by… Is it something that is worth pursuing(I plan on keeping this one for a while… Well, until something bigger or better comes along), especially if resale could be in the future? Also, the brass plate that marks the tilt angle is worn down to illegible… Is this a part that is even possible to find/ duplicate? I can get the brass, but it seems like that would be an exceedingly expensive one-off, especially without the original pattern on-hand. Otherwise, she just needs a good scrubbing, and if I get past the giant J.A. Fay bandsaw I’m rebuilding, I may even paint the Whitney. Any thoughts from your end would be greatly appreciated. You do fine work up there, and my what a collection!

    Billy

    • the owwm says:

      Billy,
      The small gear is the pinion in the rack & pinion fence. It’s a gear that can be sourced from many places. You just need to know the diameter and number of teeth. It’s welded to the end of a small shaft that passes through the upper half of the fence and accepts the small handwheel and locking knob. The whole thing is pretty simple. The tilt gauge is cast on the older saws and printed on the newer ones. It sound like yours is cast. This part could be recast or you could have a signmaker print one out that you could stick on a piece of aluminum. I bought a printed one from Newman a few years ago. They may still have something around. My preferred approach would be the signmaker. I hope this helps.

      -Arthur

  12. Clyde Leitold says:

    Arthur, Clyde on this end. Haven’t heard back from you since I last e-mailed you. You wanted pictures of my rip fence and the serial # to my 177. If you did get back to me It must have gotten lost in the ether or the cloud. Did you look around for a face and were you able to determine anything from my serial #? Hope to hear from you soon. Hope this finds you well. I am building a 20 HP Rotary Phase Converter right now. I’m tearing apart a 24# Timesaver, A heavy beast. An ” Old Iron Greeting ” Clyde

    • the owwm says:

      Clyde,
      Sorry for the long gap in communication. We’ve had some difficulties at my full time job that required my full attention. I’ve finally got back to things over the past few days. Your saw was built in 1965. You are missing the fence face as well as the mounting bracket. There were two different configurations of this fence, on the later version, the mounting bracket was incorporated in the fence face as a one piece design. These parts are scarce. You typically need to find an orphaned fence. I would suggest having one cast. While you’re waiting for that, you can use a piece of angle iron. Just drill two holes for the bolts. The hole on the left should be oversized to allow for alignment. Then bolt a piece of wood to it and you’re up and running. Another thing to remember is that although the design of the fence for the earlier #77 is different, the pin holes are the same, so it will fit.
      -Arthur

  13. Clyde Leitold says:

    Arthur, Clyde on this end. Thanks for getting back to me on the Whitney fence. I have an alternative set up, however it would be nice to have the real deal. Any idea on how much it would cost to have one cast and machined? You also mentioned that you might have one in your collection, since you didn’t mention it I assume that you don’t. One other note on the Whitney. The bronze or brass rule inlay that goes in the table top, how rare, difficult is it to find or make one of these? Still working on my 20 HP converter. Hope you got all your problems solved at work. For 30 years I hauled heavy equipment and machinery and when the ____ hits the fan everything else becomes secondary. Hope this finds you well. An Old Iron Greeting, Clyde

    • the owwm says:

      Clyde,
      I’m trying to find a fence I can spare for awhile to be used as a pattern. Once I have that, I’ll prep and take to the foundry for a quote. This is a long running process, so please be patient.

      Thanks,

      -Arthur

  14. John Macone says:

    Dear owwm,
    I recently built a year round home on my family’s summer property in Maine. I found an old table saw in the “shop” and would love to restore it. The saw is a Tannewitz Type E likely from the early 30’s and appears to be in decent shape. Everything turns freely and I’m sure it hasn’t been used in 40 years. The only part I know to be missing is the front blade housing cover. The motor is also original and turns freely.
    Is it worth fixing up? I understand that there are safety concerns with a tilting table but it would last forever! Should I replace the motor or attempt to use the old one?
    I am strictly a hobby level woodworker but can also handle basic machine work. I would welcome your thoughts. Photos are attached.
    Thanks, John

    • the owwm says:

      John,
      Apologies. Your message ended up in the comment spam filter. I only noticed it today. Let me know if you still need help.

      Thanks,

      -Arthur

  15. Paul Smith says:

    Greetings: I have a few vintage woodworking machines that our family needs to part with.My Dad bought these several years ago and worked with them periodically after he retired from his cabinet shop. We have a Mattison stroke sander 132a(I think), a milbury single end tenoner and a pry-bil(?) mortiser. Do any of these items ever draw any intrest. As I said, they are all in operating condition. Thanks for any guidance you can give.

    • the owwm says:

      Paul,
      Thanks for your question. These are interesting machines. The milbury single end tenoner is very popular. It’s important to know how many heads it has and if there are cutters on each head. This machine should have a top and bottom cope, and two cutters. The Prybil mortiser is a nice machine. Once again, value and demand are dependent on the completeness of the machine and what tooling there is with it. I would need pictures of the sander to give you an evaluation. There were many different models. If you could send pictures of each machine to afuege@yahoo.com, I’ll be glad to look at them and tell you what I think. Thanks again for posting your question.

      -Arthur

  16. Paul Smith says:

    Thanks: I am in the process of straightening/cleaning up the shop. I will get pics as soon as I get them ” presentable”

  17. Paul Smith says:

    Sent some pictures a few days ago; just checking to make sure they got to you OK.

  18. Paul Smith says:

    I put the Mattison stroke sander on craigslist. If anyone is intrested.

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